S.P.Requiem
龘䶛䨻䎱㸞蚮䡶䴞䴝䯬䬛䰕㹚㱎䖘䵈䶁䘔䶑䘓鋱䩳䵷㒪䪉䉥
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #1
I'm not saying the western countries during the colonialism and imperialism time were good, but it's not like the rest of the world were all peace loving people holding hands singing Kumbaya.
Even if we don't talk about old shits like Alexander and Genghis Khan, the western empires were not the only empires in the world of their era either. There were Russian empire, Qing (Chinese) empire, Ottoman (Turkish) empire, Mughal (Indian) empire...... and they all killed a shitload of people to expand their territories.
The only difference is that they did it to the guys right next to them, rather than to the guys on the other side of the planet by ships.
And about slavery, African kingdoms had slavery themselves. Most African slaves were bought from African lords, not captured from the street or something.
Again I'm not saying buying slaves was right, but were European slave owners really "more evil" than African slave owners? Yet you only heard people bashing the former and ask for reparation.
Same thing about China. The cession of Hong Kong to Britain and Taiwan to Japan are like two knives stuck in every Chinese person's heart, even til now.
Japan I can understand because WW2 was not that long ago and Taiwan still remain separated from China (although that has nothing to do with Japan), but Hong Kong was fucking small, and the British even gave it back, but Chinese people were still wining about Opium War at any chance they get.
But at the same time Russia had taken a way bigger chunk of China away, including Vladivostok which is a strategically very important place for China.
Yet have you ever heard Chinese bitching about that and ask Russia to give their "stolen land" back?
I think the only reason is that the westerners are the only ones who actually feel sorry about it. And you can actually get your shit back by bashing them, like Hong Kong.
There's no way the Russians would give Vladivostok back to China or feel sorry about taking it.
There's no way the Chinese would let Tibet and Xinjiang leave or feel sorry about taking them. (Hey that's an exception, people actually are bashing Chinese imperialism from hundreds of years ago!)
Only the westerners gave all their colonies back, and are still getting bashed by the world and feeling sorry everyday.
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Alcibiades
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #2
Russia actually gave up a huge amount of territory on its own initiative.
If you think only Western countries get attacked for colonialism and imperialism, you have to get out of the house more. China is still pissed at the Mongols.
Vermeer
Bringer of Jollity
- Sep 8, 2016
- #3
As I understood it, it was partly just how widespread it was. Yes the Mughals conquered India, but between the Dutch, the Portugese, and the British, India was fucked over even harder along with parts of Africa, China, and the Americas, and more.
And then it was how brutal it was. But then again other empires are brutal.
And then part of it is that the Empires still exist in a recognizable form. The Mughals fell, the other empires fell, but the British? Other than the fact they no longer rule rest of the world, were they punished for their atrocities? Not really. (Note: I am not saying they should be. It has been too long to matter, IMO.)
And worst of all, some of the western nations still flaunt it. I am of course speaking to a lot of art and artifacts that they took from other nations not being returned. Now as an art lover, I am sympathetic to the idea of keeping art in museums than can be trusted to keep it safe. But I don't think the solution is to keep it in the museums they are currently in. I think it is to work with the country the art came from to make a proper museum.
But so long that the effects of Western Imperialism can be see in the museums they are shown off in, people won't forget or forgive.
Edit: Another reason the western imperialism is hated is that people can see the effects of it more clearly today than any other. Time forgives all sins, but western imperialism was just plainly not too long ago to be forgiven yet. Give it a couple centuries and people will start to let it go.
Alcibiades
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #4
SB alone has endless threads about the evil imperialist Japanese, Russians, and Chinese. There is still I think an ongoing thread about the horror of the fall of Constantinople!
S.P.Requiem
龘䶛䨻䎱㸞蚮䡶䴞䴝䯬䬛䰕㹚㱎䖘䵈䶁䘔䶑䘓鋱䩳䵷㒪䪉䉥
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #5
Alcibiades said:
SB alone has endless threads about the evil imperialist Japanese, Russians, and Chinese. There is still I think an ongoing thread about the horror of the fall of Constantinople!
Wait, what?
phazon
In the last days of peace
- Sep 8, 2016
- #6
Because it was the most recent and sucessful of all the conquest (because lets face it, imperialism is just a fancy word for 'conquest'), and the oppressed people are still angry about that.
Edit: thinking a little, technically the soviet expansion was later. But soviet ex-republics don't exactly praise modern russia, so...
Alcibiades
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #7
phazon said:
Edit: thinking a little, technically the soviet expansion was later. But soviet ex-republics don't exactly praise modern russia, so...
yes they do. Depends on the republic. Baltics no, Georgia no, Armenia yes, Tajikistan yes.
I suspect you're thinking of the Eastern Bloc nations and not former Soviet republics, though.
S.P.Requiem said:
The Istanbul vs. Constantinople thread. Search and ye shall find.
S
Sh33p
Your YouTube expert is wrong
- Sep 8, 2016
- #8
S.P.Requiem said:
Oh you sweet summer child.
Every year we have some crank posting on the anniversary of the Fall of Constantinople, with upwards of 90+ members appearing to mourn for it.
I still have no fucking clue why, but this has been going for at least three or four years now, if not longer.
As far as attacking imperialism goes: Others did it, but the West is the best documented, most enduring in recent times, and wiped out many of the other empires along the way. In many ways, it's the most successful case of imperialism in history -- which is not to imply a moral judgment, it just got out there better than the rest. The only surviving empire in any meaningful sense is America. China is getting there but for all its bluster, espionage, and economic clout, it's still perceived as a regional power for the time being.
Michael Howze
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #9
The west is currently in charge so they get the most flak. Also as above others do catch hell it's just not in the spotlight as much because the west is running shit.
phazon
In the last days of peace
- Sep 8, 2016
- #10
Alcibiades said:
yes they do. Depends on the republic. Baltics no, Georgia no, Armenia yes, Tajikistan yes.
I suspect you're thinking of the Eastern Bloc nations and not former Soviet republics, though.
Probably, I'm not that well versed in geography.
And I believe some ex-colonies still see the colonial times as something, if not good at least decent enough.
Sergeantbrother
- Sep 8, 2016
- #11
Because western nations feel guilty over colonialism. Non-western nations aren't sorry for their empires, they are only sorry because they don't rule them anymore. So complaining doesn't do any good.
Since western nations feel guilty for their conquests, it is beneficial for others to complain about it even though virtually every non-western nation affected by colonialism is far better off for it today.
Alcibiades
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #12
phazon said:
Probably, I'm not that well versed in geography.
And I believe some ex-colonies still see the colonial times as something, if not good at least decent enough.
Sure, and different layers of society in those ex-colonies have different opinions as well.
Anopheles
I joke of many things
- Sep 8, 2016
- #13
It's better to kick up than down and most of the other 'bad nations' didn't 'win' the world in quite the same way as the Northern Capitalists did. Also distance. Few people's education system goes into detail about another country's history at general education level.
Sergeantbrother
- Sep 8, 2016
- #14
Also, obsessing over colonialism is a big part of the "white people are evil, non-white people are great" left wing narrative.
lackofgravitas
all this will soon be lost like ducks in the rain
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #15
Er Sorry *
* not really missed out on all the fun
Nikkolas
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #16
Because of the hypocrisy. Russia and China are not going around saying look at us we love freedom and rights and everyone being equal let's all be friends.
The Western tradition is one of constantly claiming enlightenment and moral superiority while doing the most horrible of things.
Flectarn
Less AFL, More CIO
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #17
S.P.Requiem said:
And about slavery, African kingdoms had slavery themselves. Most African slaves were bought from African lords, not captured from the street or something.
Again I'm not saying buying slaves was right, but were European slave owners really "more evil" than African slave owners? Yet you only heard people bashing the former and ask for reparation.
Yes, they were different kind's of slavery.
it sucks a lot to get captured in battle, and spend the rest of your life working for that tribe next door you really hate.
it sucks even more than that to get captured in battle, shipped half way around the world, forced to learn a new language, forced to convert religions, be husbanded, have the children you sire granted automatic slave status, and likely as not sold to another plantation...
edit: on the broader point.
A lot of it comes from the "Salt Water Test" Its a lot easier to look back at early chinese or mughal or whatever conquests as consolidating a nation, because its all contiguous, In much the same way you don't hear a lot of complaints about Frankish imperialism against Burgandy or Prussian imperialism against Bavaria.
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phazon
In the last days of peace
- Sep 8, 2016
- #18
Flectarn said:
Yes, they were different kind's of slavery.
it sucks a lot to get captured in battle, and spend the rest of your life working for that tribe next door you really hate.
it sucks even more than that to get captured in battle, shipped half way around the world, forced to learn a new language, forced to convert religions, be husbanded, have the children you sire granted automatic slave status, and likely as not sold to another plantation...
At least they didn't made you walk across the sahara desert.
Michael Howze
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #19
Flectarn said:
Yes, they were different kind's of slavery.
it sucks a lot to get captured in battle, and spend the rest of your life working for that tribe next door you really hate.
it sucks even more than that to get captured in battle, shipped half way around the world, forced to learn a new language, forced to convert religions, be husbanded, have the children you sire granted automatic slave status, and likely as not sold to another plantation...
edit: on the broader point.
A lot of it comes from the "Salt Water Test" Its a lot easier to look back at early chinese or mughal or whatever conquests as consolidating a nation, because its all contiguous, In much the same way you don't hear a lot of complaints about Frankish imperialism against Burgandy or Prussian imperialism against Bavaria.
That's true but in no way absolves the tribes who sold slaves. If the whites are guilty than so are the African slavers.
Damar
I ain't your average sicko
- Sep 8, 2016
- #20
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Flectarn
Less AFL, More CIO
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #21
phazon said:
Oh yes, Arab slavery was just as bad, it just didn't leave anyone behind to complain about it.
Alcibiades
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #22
Sergeantbrother said:
Because western nations feel guilty over colonialism. Non-western nations aren't sorry for their empires, they are only sorry because they don't rule them anymore. So complaining doesn't do any good.
Since western nations feel guilty for their conquests, it is beneficial for others to complain about it even though virtually every non-western nation affected by colonialism is far better off for it today.
You've obviously never met a self-flagellating Russian liberal.
galahad2
- Sep 8, 2016
- #23
Being within living memory, with people who experienced that era being alive today. Toward tail end of Roman empire people were similarly concerned about Roman oppresion than similar or worse done by Pharaohs or Babylonians.
In few centuries the colonial era will be just another chapter in histories read alongside time Romans ruled Britain, there were Greek kingdoms in India and Berbers in Spain, instead of emotionally charged topic where people have personal stakes.
Sergeantbrother said:
Because western nations feel guilty over colonialism. Non-western nations aren't sorry for their empires, they are only sorry because they don't rule them anymore. So complaining doesn't do any good.
Since western nations feel guilty for their conquests, it is beneficial for others to complain about it even though virtually every non-western nation affected by colonialism is far better off for it today.
Wonder if this is a historical unique development. The Turks had been doing the imperialist oppresion thing around same time and disbanded only few decades earlier. But they don't seem be self flagellating as much. Fuck they get pissed if you mention actual genocides they did...
Alcibiades
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #24
galahad2 said:
Being within living memory, with people who experienced that era being alive today. Toward tail end of Roman empire people were similarly concerned about Roman oppresion than similar or worse done by Pharaohs or Babylonians.
In few centuries the colonial era will be just another chapter in histories read alongside time Romans ruled Britain, there were Greek kingdoms in India and Berbers in Spain, instead of emotionally charged topic where people have personal stakes.
Like Constantinople?
Anyway the OP is not right. Western colonialism and imperialism get mentioned a lot, naturally enough, in Western countries and their former colonies or subjects. Other imperialisms get discussed in other places, but since the OP is in a Western country he doesn't know that.
Rakdos1992
Sparrowgrass and Strawberries, the gifts of Spring
Banned
- Sep 8, 2016
- #25
Because everybody hates a winner and the west world won big, mate.
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